Immigration Review

Special Episode Interview with San Diego Immigration Attorney Andrew Nietor, candidate for AILA National Secretary

• Kevin A. Gregg, Esq.

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SPEAKER_01

Welcome to Immigration Review, your weekly source for immigration case law updates and insights. I'm your host, Kevin A. Gregg, a partner at the Immigration, Medical Malpractice, and Business Litigation Law Firm Kurzban, Kurzban, Tetzelli, and Pratt, back again to review the week's precedential immigration cases, rummaging through the decisions so you don't have to. This podcast is sponsored by Serenade Immigration. If your caseload is growing, you've probably felt this. At some point, more cases start to mean more chaos or more hiring. But it doesn't have to work that way. There's a really good guide on immigration case management that shows how better systems and workflows can actually increase your capacity without just adding more people. It covers everything from data consistency to client communication. And it's totally free for immigration review podcast listeners. Get this and tons of other free resources at get thatimigration.com forward slash IRP or click on the special link in the show notes. This podcast is also sponsored by Gonzalez and Gonzalez Immigration Bonds. Immigration Attorneys. Once you've secured a bond, let Gonzalez and Gonzalez take it from there. In business and family-owned for 75 years, Gonzalez and Gonzalez helps other families host immigration bonds quickly, easily, and with full support every step of the way. Sure, you can post directly with DHS, but that means no guidance, no help when something goes wrong, and a four to six month wait for a refund. With Gonzalez and Gonzalez, families get hands-on help throughout the entire process and typically get refunds within one to two weeks of receiving the I-391 notice. Tired of being the point of contact for every bond question? Let Gonzalez and Gonzalez take those calls. They'll handle the paperwork, system issues, and the family's concerns so you can focus on what really matters: winning the case and helping your clients stay in the country. You can reach Gonzalez and Gonzalez at 833-409-9200. Their fee? Just 2% plus $40. And for bonds of $10,000 or more, they can defer the fee and deduct it from the refund. Financing options? They've got those too. Give Gonzalez and Gonzalez a call, check them out at immigrationbond.com or click on their special link in the show notes. And as always, this show does not constitute legal advice and is intended to keep you up to date and enable you, my dear colleagues, to excel in court. So, without further ado, let's start the review. In this special episode, I interview my good friend and fellow San Diego immigration attorney, Andrew Neator. Andrew's a great guy. He's one of the smartest people I know, and he's had some precedential wins on this very podcast. He's a passionate public servant and walks the walk, having dedicated countless hours to pro and low bonus service over the decades. He's an awesome removal defense attorney and litigator, and he's done it all while running his own law firm for 22 years. He's been heavily, heavily involved in ALA for a very long time and is running for ALA National Secretary this month. He's got my vote, and I'm happy to provide him this opportunity to talk a bit more about himself. I personally think that the world needs more Andrew Neators. Decide for yourself after listening to this June 3rd, 2026 interview. And I'll see you all in San Diego in two weeks. Andrew Neator, welcome to the Immigration Review Podcast. Thanks, Kevin. Great to be with you. So before I started recording, as I often do, I asked you how to pronounce your last name. It's spelled N-I-E-T-O-R. Not a very difficult name compared to the names I have to do on the podcast on a daily bas on a weekly basis, but still, I'm glad I asked. So now I know it's pronounced Nietor. My last name is pronounced Greg. No surprise to anyone. But you were then starting to talk about how your name is actually made up. My name is made up as well. My grandparents dis my my grandpa and my grandpa's brother just decided to do it in the 1950s, in my opinion, to sound less Jewish. They'll never admit to that. My grandpa would have you believe that there was another dentist in the Detroit area with his last name and first name affiliated with the Jewish mafia. And he did not want to be associated with that. I think that's a lie. I think they didn't want to sound Jewish. Either way, I'm Greg, not the Scottish Klan. You were saying that you're you might have a similar story, hopefully involving the Jewish mafia. Please, what do you got, Nietor?

SPEAKER_00

Well, interest I don't know if this would scandalize you, Kevin, but Nietor isn't even technically my legal last name.

SPEAKER_01

It does scandalize me, yes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, if if you look at my birth certificate, it's actually N-I-E-T-O apostrophe R, just to make it more confusing. And so my father, he immigrated from Colombia, and so his last name is Nieto. I'm sure you've heard N-I-E-T-O, Nieto Rojas. But when I was born, he basically wanted my name to reflect the two sides of his family. So he decided, you know, I guess people back in the 50s and 60s didn't think it was a big deal to mess with last names. Pre-real ID, I guess. So he decided that he would put N-I-E-T-O apostrophe R. And that's the name that I grew up with. Um and it was a big pain in the neck because I also grew up in the age of um you probably remember this, the uh the the Scantron forms in in school. It's like the own the little bubbles. Yes. There is no little bubble for apostrophe. Right. So when I was in school, I either like had to leave a space or not put the apostrophe in. So it always caused a lot of grief. So when I got to that point in my life where I felt like I had some agency over myself, I just decided uh I'm not gonna use the apostrophe anymore. So now it's N-I-E-T-O-R.

SPEAKER_01

So what you're c what you're saying is that you come from strife, you've gone through hardship and you've come out on the other side. That's what you're saying. Exactly. Just one version of the Jewish mafia, I guess, the Colombian Mafia. Slightly more serious mafia. Welcome to the Immigration Review Podcast, Andrew. I'm happy to have you. We're both San Diego Removal Defense and more immigration attorneys. You've been an established immigration attorney in San Diego much longer than me when I was starting out, and when I returned to San Diego, you're one of the first people I reached out to. So we're friends. I respect the heck out of you, and I'm happy to have you on the show.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks, Kevin. Right right back at you.

SPEAKER_01

I appreciate that. So I'm happy you're on the show. We would have definitely done this in the future, but we're doing this right now because you're running for a position with Ala National, and I am honored to give you this platform to talk about yourself and talk about your candidacy. So I guess to start off, what are you running for with Ayla National? I'm running for the position of secretary with Ayla National.

SPEAKER_00

And when do and when does voting start? Voting starts on June 25th and it runs for 21 days.

SPEAKER_01

I'm very happy about that because in the past it's been a pet peeve of mine that voting starts before the national conference. And then all the people like you are at the national conference trying to solicit votes, but a lot of people have already voted because if they're like me, they vote the second they get that Ala National email. So happy Ala National changed their policy. Did you have anything to do with that?

SPEAKER_00

I've often um said that they needed to change the election procedure. I was more concerned about how long it used to be. I mean, the the election used to go on for you know weeks and months, and it was just a grueling process for anybody that was running for a position. You know, I I'm on the board of governors now, and so I've I've run for national offices before, uh, and every time it's just very long, uh time consuming, expensive. Um so I'm glad that they uh shortens the uh the period of of the uh elections as well. But you're right, the overwhelming majority of people vote very early when they when that email first comes through.

SPEAKER_01

What do you mean expensive? I mean, are you supported by an Ala National Political Action Committee?

SPEAKER_00

No, no, no, no, no PACs supporting me.

SPEAKER_01

NATOR, our choice, the Colombian and Irish American immigration lawyers sub super PAC.

SPEAKER_00

It it's just uh expensive in the sense that people feel like they need to buy all all this the swag and print flyers and pins and little mementos to to hand out at at the annual conference. Uh then they'll have regular candidate forums. You need to kind of redo your your schedule to fit in all these Zoom meetings. So it it could be really grueling on our schedules. And so I I think it was it was wise to kind of narrow that down.

SPEAKER_01

Having just spoken negatively about the swag, what swag will you be providing at Ala National?

SPEAKER_00

Um, I'll certainly have buttons. Thank God. And then I was thinking of doing some of those uh uh can coolies. Like a koozie? Uh yeah, like the like the styrofoam koozies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good. With your face on it. I'll I'll put something on there.

SPEAKER_01

At least my name. By the way, so we're both uh involved in the Alain in the Ala San Diego um sub chapter, and they they created an awesome shirt for national. You see that? There's that seal surfing on a surfboard with a wave behind it, but the wave is a metaphor for immigration chaos. It's it's good stuff. Anything with a seal, I'm here for it.

SPEAKER_00

I I agree. I'm actually on the uh annual conference planning committee. Um, so we've been working on that for for quite some time.

SPEAKER_01

That was not intended. I did not intend to give you props on the shirt, but apparently props are due. Good job on the shirt. It's great.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I I I will pass that on to the actual artists.

SPEAKER_01

That's awesome. I want the hoodie. So, as I said, Andrew, I've respected you for a long time. Even when I was an attorney advisor of the San Diego Immigration Court, there were a few attorneys who were discussed by the immigration judges and as ethical and good, and like, you know, their briefs come in, look at their briefs, that kind of stuff, and you are among them, always have been, and I think that's probably the case in a lot of contexts, because you began your career as a federal public defender, right?

SPEAKER_00

That's right. Right at a law school, my first job when I moved to San Diego was with uh federal defenders of San Diego, and I was with them for a little over three years.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Powell It's a very important job, and at least in San Diego, they're kind of at the forefront of habeas litigation right now as well, because that office has decided with their scarce resources that they are going to take a lot of the habeas cases, or maybe the federal judges decided for them. So it's a very important office. How do you think that that role affected you and prepared you to be the immigration attorney that you are today?

SPEAKER_00

It was really critical in my formation as a litigator. Um, and also in the interest of disclosure, I'm still on the board of directors for federal defenders of San Diego. Uh so when I was with them, I was a trial attorney. Uh, but one of the things that they do at Federal Defenders is every attorney they handle their own appeals as well. And as you know, in in most public defender offices, whether it's local or federal, you pretty much get thrown into the fire pretty early on. And so within a couple of weeks, I was handling court appearances in front of magistrate judges, district judges, uh, writing my own briefs, doing my own sentencings, going to trial probably within three or four months. Uh and so it's a very disciplined office, um, high volume, um, and they put a lot of emphasis on training and knowing the rules of evidence of procedure. And so when I became an immigration attorney and started litigating an immigration court, I was very comfortable with filing motions and uh making objections in court. Um, probably I did it more than typical, just because that was just part of my DNA. Uh and so when I I love doing trainings on those issues, like uh courtroom procedure and how to object and how to file motions. Um, but I I credit the training that I got at Federal Defenders for doing that because I think that they're the ones that really taught me how to be an extremely zealous but ethical attorney, uh knowledgeable of the rules of evidence, um, how to file briefs, um, how to negotiate with the U.S. Attorney's Office. Um, so I give them a lot of credit for uh the the skills that I've been able to apply in immigration proceedings as well.

SPEAKER_01

It's very important to have people like you in the immigration bar. Why did you decide to leave the federal public defenders? Well, more importantly, why'd you decide to get into immigration? I mean, that's not a usual path. A lot of federal public defenders stay there for their career, they become magistrate judges and district court judges, or they go into private criminal defense. Why'd you come into immigration?

SPEAKER_00

Well, that that probably goes back to even before I went to law school. Um, my undergraduate degree is actually in finance and in international relations, and I even worked for a bank for a few years. Um, but I also did a lot of volunteer work on the side, mostly uh with homeless population and and youth advocacy things. And I I realized that I just I just enjoyed doing the volunteer work that I was doing a lot more. Um and so I decided to essentially just take a year off and just do uh full-time volunteer code, like a like a Peace Corps thing. Um my sister actually did the Peace Corps, she kind of beat me to it. And then I I wound up uh going to Tijuana, Mexico and working with the um the Silicians um called a Proyecto Siliciano Tijuana, you know, just 15 miles from where you and I are right now across the border. Um interestingly, that name might not sound familiar, that that organization, Soluciano Tijuana, uh, but they run, uh they currently run um Desayunador Soluciano Padre Chava, which is a very well-known shelter in Tijuana focusing on uh migrants, deported migrants. Um and so I was with them back in the 90s, um, before law school, before moving to San Diego. So it it's quite a coincidence that they're part of my world now, 25 years later. Um maybe more providence than than coincidence if if you believe in that. Um but then I went back to New York and got a job at um Covenant House, which is um uh a youth shelter, worked in Manhattan and the South Bronx. And and while I was there, they they had a legal department, uh, some office up on the second floor. I never really understood what went on up there, but they would regularly um call me up to ask me to help translate. They they were working a lot with um homeless migrant minors, and so the the two attorneys up there didn't speak Spanish, so they would ask me to pop up and help because I speak Spanish. And I just became fascinated with what they were doing, um, how they were providing such important services uh to our clients. I gotta say, at the time I had no real understanding of what services they were providing. So now I I assume that they were probably filling out like guardianship petitions and stiggious applications, but that really is what gave me the bug to um to go to law school with the intention of going into immigration advocacy. And so I I went to George Washington University in um in DC, uh did an internship at um Ayutha, a pretty well-known nonprofit in DC, uh, where I did my first asylum hearing uh in Baltimore immigration court. Um I still have that um order granting asylum to my uh Sudanese asylum client uh hanging on my wall.

SPEAKER_01

I was gonna say, did you win? And you did win. We won.

SPEAKER_00

I say we, I mean, I had my my supervisor with me. Um but when I was in law school, I I also someone said, Hey, why don't you try uh an internship at someplace else like the Public Defender Service? They said, Oh, I think you might like that because you seem to like the courtroom stuff. So I I did one internship at the um DC Public Defender Office, um, and I was just so impressed with the work they were doing there. They're the the the attorneys there, you know, their their zeal, their hard work, determination, compassion, it really impacted me. So when I graduated, um, I applied to Federal Defenders of San Diego since I knew that that office kind of did a mix of federal criminal defense and immigration. But that the immigration is really what led me to law school in the first place. So when I left that office to hang my own shingle around 2004, uh I started focusing more on uh on the immigration. And here I am 25 years later, still in San Diego.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Powell How did you find that hanging your own shingle just a couple of years out of the public defenders, of which and you uh part of your practice is still representing criminal defense uh through the the CJA panel. The CJA panel, that's right. But you you go out and you just hang your own shingle. That's always been very um nerve-wracking to me. It's not something I have a desire to do. How does one decide to just go forward and do it?

SPEAKER_00

It was nerve-wracking, and I have to give so much more credit to people that are doing it now because I think it's even harder to do now. Uh but when I left Federal Defenders, um I joined forces with uh two other attorneys, actually three other attorneys, so the four of us left at the same time. We didn't form a partnership, but we decided to rent some shared space so we're able to kind of cut the cost of the rent and and you know share a copy machine and all that kind of stuff. And that made it possible to do. The other thing that was very helpful for me and my for colleagues is that when we left Federal Defenders, I immediately joined that CJA panel, so I continued to accept appointed work from the Federal District Court for criminal defense cases. And so that was very helpful because it was feeding me cases, and so I didn't have to start from scratch. Um and so that that was a a bit of a of an advantage that people leaving federal defenders have that they can immediately go on on the panel. Um but I did have to start from scratch with the uh with the immigration, you know, started by you know joining AILA and getting to know people and kind of making myself known in the community as like one of those crimigration guys. Yeah. Um and that's what I've continued to do uh over the over the decades.

SPEAKER_01

Twenty-two years later, if I'm doing my math correctly, and you have one of the oldest immigration firms now in San Diego and two associates, if I'm not mistaken. I have two associates.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think you you you know them, Naraya and and Julia. They both are my uh associate attorneys.

SPEAKER_01

That's fantastic. You know, you mentioned coincidence and maybe providence. I do know you. I think that you fall into the category of believing in Providence. You you know me well. How how does your faith affect your immigration advocacy and your passion for this work?

SPEAKER_00

Well, i if I didn't mention it, the the volunteer work that I did in uh Mexico with uh Proyecto Siliciano, it's it's a Catholic organization. So I was uh basically a Catholic uh lay volunteer. And so I I grew up, you know, Colombian father, Irish mother, very Catholic family on both sides. Um, you know, went to parochial school growing up, the whole you know, a very Queen's Catholic experience. And also my my parish was um administered by Franciscans, uh, which themselves have you know the spirit of you know giving to the community and you know love of animals, which I also share. Um so the my my faith community growing up was was very important uh in my formation uh and determining what was important to me, the importance of you know helping people in in the community less less fortunate, uh recognizing the blessings that we have and the obligation we have to help other people that need assistance, that don't have um a voice, that are targeted, and need somebody to advocate for them. Uh I would say that my faith growing up was very much a part of my decision um of the volunteer types of opportunities that I that I took on. Uh the reason I went to law school and and even today um continues to be a a big uh motivator, a source of inspiration and and and comfort for me. I'm not a theologian theologian.

SPEAKER_01

Not even Catholic. I do pay attention. I am interested. It seems to me that what you just described is in line with the views of the current Pope and the immediate predecessor Pope. But there seems to be, and and in San Diego especially, the Catholic Church, uh leading an interfaith coalition, is on the front lines of advocating for immigration issues. Uh the peaceful protests in front of the fell federal building every week, the observers in immigration court. I mean, what what's happening led by the Catholic Church in San Diego is truly incredible, the bishop being an immigrant himself. But it seems there's a bit of a split in the Catholic Church, at least in America, most visually reflected by J.D. Vance, and views of the intersection of Catholicism and immigration. And it's very interesting to me how that happens, why that happens, and why you think it's happening, or whether you think I'm making a bigger deal of it than it is.

SPEAKER_00

All I could say is that what what I take from my faith, I think, is shared by the the current pontiff, I think the his predecessor, Pope Francis, as well. So I was very inspired by a lot of the work that Pope Francis did and what our current Pope is doing, their constant reminder of the importance of human dignity, uh, and even more importantly, in my line of work, in our line of work, the dignity of the immigrant and the need to welcome the stranger and not to take advantage of people. And so I I feel like I am in alignment with the official current policies of uh of the church. I I know that many people share that, but it's also you know, a group of over a billion people, you're gonna have some diversity within it. And frankly, whether you're talking about people within any specific denomination or church, I I often find that people that don't have that view of the dignity of whatever group you're talking about, so whatever marginalized, oppressed group, um, it all very often comes from a lack of exposure to that group. And so to me, the the the work that we do, one of the central components has to be our outreach, not just you know, among ourselves and within our community, but to the wider community, you know, speaking to the media, giving real-life examples of cases that we've had, clients that we've worked with. And that's what brings dignity to that community when they're real people, when they're your neighbors, when they're your employers, uh, when they're your relatives, um, or at least when you hear other people talk about them in that context. Uh and it you know, right now there's just so much negativity coming out of this administration and from their supporters. One of my concerns is that a lot of people that don't agree with that can sometimes feel intimidated. They don't want to get in the fray because they know that that might invite um attack, it might invite uh retaliation. Um but again, one of the benefits of having organizations like Ayla and many other advocacy organizations is that it provides a forum, it provides some level of credibility, um, an opportunity to talk about our clients and talk about that community and constantly remind people of the dignity of of every person.

SPEAKER_01

Let's get into that. Your involvement with Ayla and why you're running to be secretary. I now know through my what has become annual interviews with the presidents of Ayla at the National Conference that the secretary position, correct me if I'm wrong, is the entry position into one day becoming the president of Ayla. It is a multi-year ladder that essentially ends with you being the president of Ayla and you get in at the secretary level. Is that correct? I I think traditionally that that's true. But no longer the case?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I I think it it it certainly could be the case, but I I I suppose I say it that way because I I feel like I'm running for secretary for a very specific reason in that the secretary position is traditionally also very much focused on things like um membership engagement, creating a welcoming community, and and those things very much specifically align with my own priorities and with what I've pushed our leadership to focus on in the years that I've been in a position to do that. So certainly this might lead to me eventually taking on other positions within the organization, perhaps even ALA president, if tradition holds. Uh, but I also very much want to be secretary because of what that position does and how important I think it is within our organization.

SPEAKER_01

Aaron Ross Powell We'll get into specifics. What as secretary are you trying to enact um through no fault of the volunteers currently in that position? What do you think is lacking and what do you hope to achieve?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's not that anything is is lacking. I I think that we need to establish what our focus is going to be. I think there's certainly been a change in uh the practice of immigration law. There's been a change in our uh interaction with the government, with this administration. Um very specifically, I want to build up our membership engagement initiatives through things like personal outreach to members, getting feedback on what members need, to incorporate that into our sort of programmatic planning. Because right now the the practice of immigration law has become so so challenging. The attacks of the administration are not just against immigrants, they're also against immigrant advocates. We are uh explicitly being targeted by this administration. And so the practice of immigration law has been that much more difficult. We need to have an organization that we can rely on not only to obtain the the services we need and the training and the listservs and the practice advisories, but just to have a a particularly strong community where we are able to share information with each other. Um and also where we just feel a sense of community because we're so constantly under attack that we need for our own well-being, I think, uh we need to have a community where we feel like we're in this together, where we feel welcomed, and where we feel we're with other people that understand what we do and and why we do it.

SPEAKER_01

How do you help make that happen as secretary? What what would you do?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I I'm a huge proponent of things like you know, listservs and interest groups and finding ways for members to interact and brainstorm with each other. That that's really an essential part of being an Enala member, and where I'd like to see us strengthen our resources. So increasing the opportunities that members have to share information with each other. I I love brainstorming with other attorneys, and that could be either one-on-one or through the interest groups or or the listservs that Ayla has uh within the organization. And there really needs to be two parts to this. Ayla members, you know, we're 18,000 plus strong, and we're in every part of the immigration world. And so a lot of that information that all those attorneys have can be filtered into the organization. But then AILA as an organization needs to figure out how to use that information and collate it and then make it available and useful and practical to all of the members. So building up a way to not only bring information into the organization, like encourage people to participate more, make people feel like they're part of the organization, that they're welcomed, but also make it clear the ultimate benefit that every member has through being a member of Ayla, that the organization is going to have this wealth of information, and with that information, we can then collate it and funnel it back to the members. We can also help identify patterns that you know a removal practitioner might not realize that what they're going through is very similar to what the employment practitioner is going through and other litigators, and and Ayla has the opportunity to collate all that information and identify those patterns and make it useful back down to the members.

SPEAKER_01

You definitely practice what you preach as well. You go to the Ayla Message Center and search years in the past, and you see Andrew Neator is one of the people just answering on his own dime all of these questions. By the way, if you don't use the Ayla Message Center, I recommend you do. It's very good. It's not used as much anymore with the uh popularity of the Facebook groups and such, but like a lot of these questions have been asked before. And people like Andrew and others answer your questions. It's a pretty good search function. I don't think it's promoted enough. I truly only promote the message center because it's been so helpful to me. But in addition to that, you're all over the local chapter listserv, um, trying to do exactly what you're talking about. Uh continue conversation, create conversation, answer questions. And you've been involved in the Ala San Diego chapter for a very long time. In a lot of the ways, you are Ala San Diego, and you've had so many positions. Why have you been so involved for so long? How have you done it? And how do you think that that has positioned you to step into an elected national leadership position? So please answer my six questions in one.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I will go back in time to when I first joined AILA. Um, it was shortly after I left Federal Defenders. Um, and I wanted to focus on immigration. So joining Ayla just seemed like the thing to do. That's what everybody said. But you know, joining Ayla isn't the same as being involved in Ayla and being involved in the Ayla community. So how I came to be involved is a very different story than just how I you know enrolled on the website initially.

SPEAKER_01

Uh I put please tell me how you enrolled. Listeners wanted to hear the specifics. Um I probably used Mozilla at the time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so after I joined, I I popped into a chapter meeting. Um I think back then we were doing them at uh at Rock Bottom in La Jolla. And uh it was my first meeting. So I remember someone came up to me. Um I don't recall if she was the chair at the time, but you know Tammy Lynn?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. It was Tammy. And um maybe this will surprise you, but I'm a bit of an introvert at heart. So going to a group meeting where I don't knowbud is is not really my my comfort zone. And maybe that showed in my eyes. But so Tammy introduced herself to me, uh, kind of looped me into what was happening, and and I gotta say that that's really how it started. Uh I'll also say Tammy didn't stop there. Um she followed up with me after the meeting, encouraged me to join some committees, um, which I did. And then she eventually encouraged me to join the uh executive committee as chapter secretary, which I did. And then a few years later, um I was elected chapter chair as part of the executive committee. Um and so that that gesture, uh I don't know if Tammy's gonna be listening to this or not. She better be. She probably wouldn't mind because she comes out pretty good in the story, huh?

SPEAKER_01

She does.

SPEAKER_00

Um so I so the the lesson for for me there was that you know personally inviting me to participate, that's what made me feel welcome. And it's a very important lesson that really stuck with me. And I've always had that story in my head. And when we're talking about how to make Ayla National as an organization, you know, more welcoming and more inclusive, that's the image I always have in my head. The person just like personally coming up to me, personally inviting me to get involved. And I suppose what it really taught me was there's a difference between just making something accessible and making a person feel welcomed. And that's that's so important. And that's what I've tried to carry through in my Alain national leadership positions. So I'm on my second term as an elected director on the board of governors. And so to me, I've also been part of the membership um committee in the past, and for a couple of years I was um I was the uh civility ambassador. So I've always been very focused on trying to make people feel welcomed. And I always remember that story of how I got involved in in AILA San Diego, that it's not enough to just you know, it's not enough to send out an email and say, okay, we're we have we have a meeting, here's the link. That makes the meeting accessible. It does not make the person feel welcomed. And so I really want AIL leadership, and I think that they they they very often do a very good job. I think we need to continue to do this and do more of it. We need to have personal outreach to members so that they that they know what their opportunities to participate are, and they feel personally welcomed in those spaces, that they are invited to be there, and then once they're in those spaces, they feel they have a place in that group. Um and so that that personal outreach is very important to me. I think that that's what as a secretary, I think that so much of that can be magnified to sort of loop people in. Uh I'll give another example. Whenever we have um a board of governors meeting, we have you know at least for a year. Um and you might have seen this uh in in the chapter listserv or on some of the national listservs. I will always go to a bunch of different listservs and just let people know with within ALEF, you know, throughout the organization, hey, we have a a board of governors meeting coming up, just you know that it's open to the entire membership. Um this is what the meetings are like, this is the date and the time. If you'd like to go, you're very welcome to go. If there's an issue you'd like discussed, let me know if you'd like me to help you present it, if you'd like me to present it for you. You know, just very personal outreach. And I've I've had members that I do not know contact me and say, hey, I saw that email. I was always wondering, like, if I wanted to talk to the board about issue X, am I allowed to do that? I'm like, yes, you're absolutely allowed and and and welcomed to do that. When I was chapter chair, something else that I did that I wasn't sure if it was going to go over well, but I I think it did. Um, before every monthly meeting, we we had monthly meetings back then in person, as you know, as organizations did back in the day. Right. Um, and so before every monthly meeting, um, I, along with the other people on the executive committee, so that there would be four of us, um, each one of us, I asked every one of the people on the executive committee to go to the chapter roster, pick five people that they do not know, and call them and specifically invite them to the meeting. I said do two things. Introduce yourself and then specifically say, hey, we we have this meeting coming up in a week. Do you think you might uh be interested in coming? Um and there was some hesitation to doing that. Even I thought um maybe some people are not gonna appreciate these calls. Um, but I gotta say, we never got negative feedback from those calls. We got some indifference to those calls. And some people you know just went to voicemail and we never heard back from them. Some people said, okay, and and that was it. But we did get new members who specifically said they came because somebody called them and invited them to the meeting. And that's the sort of you know, personal outreach that I think gets people involved. It gets people to feel like somebody wants them there and they're they're welcomed and they have something to say. This is how you do it. We want to hear from you.

SPEAKER_01

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SPEAKER_00

I mean, we're we're 18,000 people. Um, but when you look at the number of people that actually, for instance, participate in in the vote every year, or you know, go to meetings uh or you know, join committees, my understanding is actually it's higher than that the average nonprofit. So I'm very proud of those numbers. But I think it could be even higher. And it just means that there are a lot of people that are joining AILA that perhaps don't know what resources are available to them, or just feel perhaps uncomfortable making the first move. So I think that we should make the first move and say, hey, Mary, hey, Mark, you're you're welcome to come to this meeting, or just we just want to call and say hello, and you got it, you got a minute to chat. That personal interaction is so crucial. And I I gotta say, also, it is outside my comfort zone. But I was making other people do it, so I picked five names as well. And uh at the end of the at the end of the year, I was really glad that we did that. And I I it actually helped me develop uh my uh aversion to to cold calling as well. Um, but I I think it was really good for the chapter, and I think that sort of outreach would be very good for our organization as well.

SPEAKER_01

Your faith is showing with your examples of Mary and Mark as the two individuals to individuals to call. Then Luke and John will show up as well as well. Uh hey Seuss. You know, Tammy, you know, Tammy's great, now an adjunct professor at USD Law. Right. Yeah, I've presented with her. Her and I are good friends, uh, she's a great person. She has made known to me that she has never listened to this podcast. I have over half a million downloads. Tammy Lynn is not one of them. Not one, with all the case law stuff. So while she is deserving of all this praise, I I do wonder if I'll be contacted. And don't if if you're if you're a friend of hers, don't tell her that this happened. I want this to be organic, and I want to and I want to know. I want to know if she listens. I want to and if she listened this long into the episode. So Tammy falls in your court. You would have also, I imagine, bonded with Tammy over love of dogs. I know you and Bosco are quite close, and I know Tammy's uh she's got Mill House is the name of her dog, if I'm not mistaken on this.

SPEAKER_00

And another uh piece of um coincidence slash providence, Tammy and I live three blocks from each other. Oh we we uh our dogs know each other and uh we walk by each other's houses all the time.

SPEAKER_01

Promoting Tammy Lynn. Before we leave Ayla National, what what do you think Ayla's role is in this time of just absolute attack? We uh first and foremost, we are a membership organization. It's American Immigration Lawyers Association, right? Uh the the issues for immigration. Immigration lawyers are front and center, but there is that tension because immigration policy and the how our clients are treated is very important to all of us. It's why we all get into immigration. What is Ayla's role in this moment and with immigration policy generally, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_00

Sure. I was very, very glad to see last year Ayla form the rule of law task force in direct response to the attacks of this administration on our profession, on our attorneys, on advocates, on nonprofits, faith-based organizations. That is still being developed, but it's already done so much in identifying what the risks are to our members. I've done some trainings on this specific issue so that our members are aware of where these attacks are coming from, how this administration is forming these executive orders, what they say, how they might be used against us. But just as importantly, identifying how to respond, what the defenses are. Who within our organization is a federal litigator that you can call on if this comes up and you need to consult with somebody or if you need to have somebody represent you if if it gets to if it gets to that point. But also uh just going back to the the importance of a sense of community, making sure that people don't feel like they're in this alone. Because if you feel that you're being attacked by the administration, that could be quite daunting. But if it's the administration is attacking us, that's a very different feel to it, isn't it? Isn't it? And so just knowing that you know we're all in this together, we're developing defenses together, we're pushing back together, we're we're not accepting this together, I think that's a critical role of ALIS. So there are very practical things like providing that information to us and advocating to our allies in Congress to make sure that we're we're protected and these executive orders don't turn into legislation or that legislation isn't perverted in ways that inappropriately attack us and our clients. So that that type of direct advocacy, you know, our our AILA staff is such a wonderful resource uh in in that sense. Um but also just making sure that we have this sense of community and we understand that what's happening is abnormal, it's unlawful, um, and that together we have the the resources to fight back. We have the resources to talk in the media to the public about what's wrong with what's happening. Um and so I think that that is a critical role of of Ayla right now. I mean there there are ongoing uh things that Ayla is always going to do. It's it's always going to be the number one bar association for immigration attorneys. It's always going to have uh a very strong um component of advocacy um with um leaders in in the federal government. Uh it's always going to have a very strong um media uh component. Uh our you know, comms team with within ALA is is just awesome, not only in the direct work that they do in getting messages out to the media, but in training attorneys within Ayla so that you know we can write those op-eds and we can appear in the news as the immigration experts. But beyond those like ongoing things, you know, we really need to think about what is happening right now. I mean, how much has changed just in the last year and a half to the practice of law?

SPEAKER_01

You know, the 120 BIA decisions in a year and a half? I mean, all of them changing the law. Should ALA be more political and should it be advocating for changes that benefit our clients more than it is, in your opinion? Or should it be focused as it is, mostly on the immigration attorneys?

SPEAKER_00

Well, uh both are integral parts of the organization. So I I I really w can't imagine AILA being one w without the other. And I think that if you spoke to most AILAM members, you know, perhaps that there might be some discussion about how much how how many resources should go to one over the other. But I think that the overwhelming majority of ALA members really value and appreciate the fact that we do both advocacy on behalf of our clients and advocacy on behalf of members, as well as the practice management stuff that is just critical to you know running a business, representing clients, you know, getting those practice advisories and having access to those listservs. So I I can't imagine Ayla having one without the other. They're just they're just you know two lungs within the same body, really.

SPEAKER_01

The annual conference is coming up, and it's in San Diego. I think we're both pretty happy about that. Although I am a bit bummed that I don't get to go to another city, you know. I feel like when it's local, it's not quite the trip, but it's also much easier for you and I. What tips, you've been to a lot of A-la national conferences, what tips do you have for newer members going to this conference for you know first, second, third time, and just in general for members to maximize the conference? Because the CLE certificates, so that's just that's just the first step. That's just the one part of it.

SPEAKER_00

The annual conference is really the uh the the crown jewel of Ayla, and it can be a bit overwhelming, especially for people that are going for the first time. So I I really enjoy speaking to newer Ayla members or members who have been here a while but have not gone to an annual conference to talk about you know how to approach the annual conference because you know it lasts several days. If you look at that you know day at a glance, it's pretty overwhelming, all the opportunities, and it's really hard to choose. And you know, one thing that I I like to tell people that are going for the first or second time is uh it's very easy to fall into the trap of saying, well, I'm a removal practitioner, so let me look at all the removal track sessions, and those are the ones I'll go to. I'm an employment practitioner, so I'm gonna go to all the employment track courses. I think that that makes sense to a certain degree, but especially nowadays when I think there's a a growing need to diversify our practices, um whether it's uh because of uh of a business decision or just to keep things interesting, look at some of the sessions for things that you don't do, either because they might be interesting to you. You always wondered what that type of visa was about, uh, or you always thought, hey, this seems like it might be something that would be um an area of immigration law that I could expand into. Um and so identify those and go to those fundamental sessions and let your AILA annual conference experience be this combination of you know reinforcing and improving the practice that you have, learning new areas, and also even beyond the panels, look at some of the other activities. And I don't mean you know just all the parties, even though those are awesome. Um look at some of the gatherings of the interest groups. The no, there's a migration interest group. There's you know, an interest group for you know every interest group that exists. Most of them will have meetings at the annual conference. The people that you are like seeing their names pop up on the listservs, you have an opportunity to go and hang out with them and and and talk about things, and you can help develop the agenda for that one-hour session. And and those, and it's gonna be beyond that one-hour experience. You are going to uh create relationships with colleagues that you're gonna take back to your offices, and that's going to be invaluable. And so don't think of the AILA conference as just an opportunity to get the MCLE that you need and just to reinforce the type of practice that you have. Look at all the other things to complement that.

SPEAKER_01

As a self-described pseudo-introvert, how do you recommend that people network in a way that's not awkward and that actually works?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that that that's a great question. I guarantee you that the majority of people that you see at annual conference are looking back at you and you're both thinking, oh, I hope I hope he comes over and says hello. Oh, uh oh, she's from Tulsa. That that's that's really cool. Uh, I hope she looks my way. Everybody is looking for the other person to be the first to say hello. Just say hello. Just if you're sitting next to somebody, the easiest lead-in question is, oh, where are you here from? And you know, if if they want to engage, all they need is that lead-in question, and then you can just take it from there. So don't be afraid to start a conversation. Everybody there, part of why they're there is to interact with people, but I think that it's human nature to sometimes assume that other people don't want to be bothered. But everybody there wants to be bothered. That's why they're there. They want to interact, they they want to chat with people from cities that they always thought were were interesting or they never knew somebody from there before. So my advice is just be the first to say something and make it as simple as, um, hey, where are you here from? Or, oh, did you um if it's at the end of a session, yeah, that that was pretty cool. What'd you think? Just something as simple as that, and I guarantee you that 99 out of 100 people will take that as an opportunity to engage.

SPEAKER_01

And I suggest maybe you go to your neighbor and quite frankly, as many people as you can find at the at the conference and say, hey, do you listen to the Immigration Review podcast? So that's uh it's just an amazing, amazing intro line. Uh, you'd have so much to talk about. So then that's my two cents to answer my question.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And and given your your follower base, I'm I'm sure that that's that that's a good shot. They're gonna say, Oh, yeah, I listen to him.

SPEAKER_01

That's right. Well, you have to, you know, I haven't published this episode yet, so you have to say that because uh you know that's you're you're asking, you you mentioned the um the the volunteers.

SPEAKER_00

Um I don't know if you knew this, but it's it's kind of a a coincidence. Do you know where I was this morning?

SPEAKER_01

I don't.

SPEAKER_00

I I was actually in federal court. Um maybe some of the people that are listening aren't aware of what happened here in San Diego uh about a month ago, but we have a group of volunteers, um, different organizations. Some of them are faith uh faith-based, some are not. I think that the two biggest, one is called Faith. Uh I think that's the one that was um formed by by Bishop Phan, but it's it's um uh several different faith communities that have joined together. Another one is um detention and resistance. But they they they go to our federal building and they go to immigration court to observe, and they go to the ICE check-in and they just give people directions, um, they help people fill out forms, they they chat with people. Some of the faith-based ones will like say little prayers for people outside the building if they ask um if they ask for that. But they're there's a wonderful group of volunteers, all different ages, retired, ex-military, just people within the community.

SPEAKER_01

It's been very it's it's been very powerful. And it's very powerful. It's affected things, and I I think it should be happening in every city. It's just so commendable.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I give you heartwarming stories of me sitting in the waiting room and just listening to conversations between the volunteers and just the random respondent who's there by himself or herself, and you could just tell they were so relieved to have somebody to talk to. I almost feel like I'm about to get choked up thinking about a particular story. I'm not gonna go into that. So getting back to where I was uh this morning, Kevin, about a month ago, a bunch of them got citations. So that the the federal uh police that are within that building started giving out loitering citations to these volunteers who are in you know public spaces offering directions and and prayers and conversations to these people and find them. And so a bunch of them had their first appearance in federal court this morning because it's federal property, so they had to go to it's called a CVP court. Um and so I just went over there and offered to represent them. So I've been doing this um pro bono. And so that that's where I was this morning, just representing some of these individuals that were there were I actually went over to represent one that I had just gotten connected with, but when I got there, there were four others. I just kind of was chatting with them, confirmed there was no conflict, and they wanted me to help them out. So I just represented all five of them. Um they're all insistent that they did nothing wrong. And so, you know, I've never been in that particular courtroom before, but you know, it it's it's part immigration world, which I'm comfortable with. It's part federal litigation, which I'm comfortable with. Um it's a whole lot of you know um First Amendment stuff, which I'm certainly interested in, and some righteous indignation, which I'm all about. Um and so I'm I'm continuing to represent them uh they and there might be some more coming in in a couple of weeks. But I even I reached out to other attorneys in the community, and I just have a list of attorneys. Some of them are AILA attorneys, some of them are CGA attorneys on the criminal defense side that said, Oh, you're doing that? I'd love to do that. Um and it's it's really started to create this feeling within the uh uh attorney community here of we have an opportunity to kind of give back to these volunteers who have been so helpful and selfless with our clients. Um and so that that's that's where I spent my morning in in court representing these volunteers, which I was very happy to do.

SPEAKER_01

That's wonderful. I can't think of someone better to be doing that. I'm really uh thankful and grateful that you're doing that. And as you talk about the First Amendment stuff, I really think that if he gets to it, or even before, we should loop in Eric Isaacson, who is an appellate First Amendment attorney in San Diego and is on the board of the American Constitution Society with me. Um he's all about the First Amendment. Um if this if if this becomes constitutional, I'm sure that Eric would like to get involved and have a have a lot to to provide on the constitutional questions.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. That that would that would be a great idea. Yeah, the a lot of just great seasoned attorneys, and also just a lot of like new attorneys that are just very interested in in these issues that have been reaching out. So it's it it's it's been a really nice experience seeing what it's doing to the to various communities uh within San Diego.

SPEAKER_01

Before we go, you provided me your resume, as I've asked guests to do over the last couple months, and it is for this reason. I saw at the end of your resume that you are learning Thai. Why are you learning nothing against the Thai people are lovely people? Why are you learning Thai, Andrew Neator? I I forgot I had that on there.

SPEAKER_00

Um so that this goes back to the pandemic, actually. You know how everybody was just home, just I I basically watched every movie there was to watch on Netflix, and I decided I just need to do something more productive with my time. So I decided that I wanted to learn one instrument and learn one language. Um so I started taking some just like just on YouTube guitar lessons. I already knew some like basic stuff, but I wanted to learn like Spanish guitar. So I started doing that. And then for a language, or I already speak Spanish, I I thought I'd like to learn a language that is not like Spanish, uh not a romance language, maybe even not a language that I'm gonna particularly use very much. I wanted to focus on like a tonal language, like many of the Asian languages are, just because it's so different. Um, and as I was watching all those Netflix movies, um, I never I started watching movies in in uh different languages just out of curiosity. Uh and I was surprised at how well developed, it might seem random, but the the Thai film industry seems quite developed. Um and I just found myself watching a lot of those movies, so many that every now and then I would like understand what they were saying because you know, just the basic greetings. So I thought, ah, I also like Thai food. I eat Thai food at least twice a week.

SPEAKER_01

There we go.

SPEAKER_00

And by the way, I I have gotten at least a dozen free Thai iced teas uh just because I can order my food in Thai. But my my my Thai is really basic. I could I could do greetings, um, I could do uh ordering my food now. I still have my book uh that I'm kind of trying to pick up. Uh and I'd love to go to Thailand. It's number one on my list right now. Uh I'm not ready to you know speak freely on the streets, but you know, maybe by the time I make my plans, I'll I'll be able to carry on a conversation. Really the the only downside I would say is that it's great that when I walk into a Thai restaurant, I I can you know speak the basics um and it always entertains and amuses the people there and that they they clearly appreciate it. But I've I've learned that I now need to specifically say that I don't want my food spicy because otherwise they just assume I want to be. Right. So I I do know how to say you know um uh uh not spicy food or not spicy or like a certain level. Um that's become an integral part of my vocabulary when I order food.

SPEAKER_01

Well, you know, Andrew, I think you've got the a latae vote. So that you've got that section on lock. It's been a pleasure speaking with you this evening in San Diego. I'd like to give you the last word before we conclude.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I would just encourage members to participate in in the election. Um like I said, my my understanding is that we have a pretty good compared to other organizations, a pretty good number of people that that vote, but it's still pretty low. Um and especially now, I'm sure many people know that we now have um regions within Ayla. So Ayla has been divided into uh regions, and for the first time, all members will be voting for a uh a director from their region to represent them on the board. I would hope that that provides sort of an added incentive because that's gonna be somebody that is gonna represent you on the board specifically for your area. So it's not some you know, at-large elected director that's also technically representing the other you know 18 million, uh 18,000 people within the organization. This is gonna be somebody representing you in your geographic region. Um and so that person can really carry your needs to AILA national, to governance and to leadership. So please participate. Um I obviously would love to have people vote for me as AILA secretary. I'm hoping that this provided an opportunity uh for people to learn a little bit more about me, my background, and what I'd like to bring uh to the secretary uh position. Um and if anybody has questions or would like to engage me, I am always very open to talking about. I I'm such an AILA nerd. I'm always uh looking to talk about AILA stuff with with folks.

SPEAKER_01

Pleasure to have you on the show, Andrew. Um can't wait to hang out with you at the National Conference. And beforehand, thank you for everything you do, and thank you for coming on the show. Thank you, Kevin. Pleasure to speak with you today. So there you have it. I'm Kevin A. Gregg, a partner with the law firm Curzban, Curzban, Tetzelli, and Pratt, and this has been another episode of Immigration Review. Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed it. If you did, please share it with a friend and rate and review us. Each review helps new listeners find the show. And of course, subscribe to Immigration Review wherever you get your podcasts. If you like what we do and want to become a patron of the show, please check out our Patreon page at www.patreon.com forward slash immigration review or click on the link in the show notes. And if you're interested in an official Immigration Review CLE certificate, email me at kgreg at kktplaw.com with your full name and the episode numbers for the 10 shows you've listened to. Also, feel free to email me with questions, comments, or anything at all, and follow the show on Instagram and Facebook at ImmigrationReview, or send us a tweet at Imreview. That's I am Review. And you know we're always interested in hearing listener feedback. Like this review about the episode you just listened to from my very young son. So, how did you like that episode? Indeed. If you like my son, enjoyed what you just heard again, please give the Patreon payers some love, feel free to review the pod, reach out to me with your own kind sounds, or do anything else nice that your heart desires. I'll be back next week for a brand new discussion. Until then, I'm Kevin A. Gregg, bringing you the Immigration Review.